[Nipy-devel] website modifications

[Fernando Perez]

Hey Jarrod,

On 5/14/06, Jarrod Millman <millman at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Sorry for the delayed response, I was busy and wanted to see if anyone
> else had any comments before I responded.  I don't know how coherent it is,
> but here are my thoughts about the issues raised by Fernando's last email.

Thanks a lot for this detailed reply.  I was half-way of either
opinion for ipython (while strongly convinced it was the right choice
for more visible projects like scipy), but I think after reading your
reply, I'm happy going with the Moin setup for ipython as well.

In fact, we already have a Moin up for ipython thanks to R. Kern:

http://ipython.scipy.org/wiki

But right now it's completely empty of either content or style.  But
the engine is in place.

> I think that we all agree that for any open development project it is
> important to provide distinct user's and developer's sites.  I also think
> that making the 2 sites obviously and *visually* distinct is important in
> terms of user accessibility.  Having the 2 sites on different wikis is
> a very easy way to achieve this.

[ snip detalied discussion ]

I actually find these arguments valid and convincing, so I'm going to
follow suit with moving to Moin on the ipython site as soon as I can.
I just need to get a bit of info on how to customize it a little, and
on permissions (to avoid spam), and I'll be good to go.

It's also true that a wiki (with suitable registration controls to
prevent spam) is really effective at getting real community
involvement.  The only catch with wikis is to keep an eye on them so
they don't become too disorganized, but I know that for example you've
already been doing precisely that with the nipy Trac.  I've also
tried, on the ipython one, to have some broad categories, summary
pages with all the relevant links, and to use the navigational aids
(Trac table of contents plugins) to help.  So I think this is an issue
that, with a bit of attention, can be managed.

> Currently, both the ipython and nipy projects have a pure html user site
> and a trac based developer's site.  I think that both sites work will
> in the sense
> that a new user coming to either site can quickly find the information they need
> without feeling overwhelmed.  There is a lot of information pointed to
> by the ipython
> main site, but it is feels like the site is manageable, because it is
> so visually obvious
> that most of the links take you to "other" sites.  I know this may
> seem like a small
> point, but I think it has a big impact on the user's perception.
>
> A user coming to the ipython site first sees that almost everything
> about ipython
> for the user is contained on one page.  You can find out what it is as
> well as how
> to download, install, and use it fairly quickly.  You also find a host
> of links to other
> sites, which contain more information.  I feel that this gives the
> user access to the
> most important things quickly, but also conveys to the user that these
> other sources
> of information are not necessary to read in order to get some use from the code.
>
> I think that ipython and nipy would benefit from making the user sites
> a little nicer,
> but I would argue for keeping both sites visually distinct and very
> minimal compared
> to the developers sites.  Both ipython and nipy should have more
> visually appealing
> front pages, which convey a more professional image to users.  The
> developer's site,
> however, should be in a state of greater flux and have less gloss.

The ipython single-page html site is getting /really/ long in the
tooth, and I had been delaying doing anything about it out of pure
laziness/business.  When I first put it up, it was OK (if barebones),
but over time that single page has grown way too long, and I'm too
lazy to do any decent CSS/navbars to make something nicer.  So I think
that switching to Moin will allow me to just sidestep the issue
altogether, and ride on the infrastructure which Moin provides (with a
suitable theme) to get something a bit nicer.

Thanks again for the feedback, I'm happy with this solution for
ipython, and hopefully it will also work for nipy (even if, as you
said, you delay a bit the creation of the Moin site).  I still think
that eventually you'll want to treat your 'type 1 and type 2' users as
clients of the Moin site, and leave the Trac one mostly for those
interested in contributing to the core of nipy.

I hope we're not underestimating the overhead of having information in
two places, since there is still some danger of not knowing where to
put certain things which arguably can be of interest to both end-users
and developers.  But I guess we can try to sort such things out as we
run into them...

Cheers,

f